Comics Biggest Blight

From reviews to what's going on in the industry, if it's happening in comics, you can talk about it here.

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Who's Comics Biggest Blight?

Joe Q
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No votes
Jeph Loeb
1
14%
Robert Kirkman
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No votes
Dan Didio
1
14%
Rob Liefeld
5
71%
 
Total votes : 7

Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby Bob Prodor » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:07 am

Andrew Foley wrote:The superhero genre is finally reaching the point in pop culture that it's always held for the bulk of North American comic fans, where it's become, or is rapidly becoming, the dominant genre, at least in movies. It'd be silly to divorce superheroes from the medium that practically invented them just as a mainstream audience is starting to recognize and appreciate them as a genre.

I never thought about that, but, yeah, Superhero movies ARE pretty much the dominant sub-genre of action movies. That's a wildly exciting thing that honestly never dawned on me before! I do love the Superheroes, and I wasn't saying they should be obliterated (just multi-arc crossovers) but I was trying to figure out how to do non-genre stories while still being exciting.

What are some examples of alternative comics that are a thrilling read, while not being sci-fi, action or hero-centric? I love Eightball, as it is so beautifully done, and funny as heck. CUD was also sensational, one of my biggest inspirations. Love and Rockets as well totally rules.
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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby HHComics » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:03 pm

Andrew Foley wrote:That said, i would be nice if there were more variety of genre on the new releases shelves of, if not all, at least the majority of comic shops.

Well, the point could be argued that there is a very wide variety of stuff on the shelf (at better stores) than there ever have been in the history of the medium. More variety and more styles in titles. The problem is that while people ask for these different and unique books, they sell very poorly (not knowing if that's due to a finicky purchasing public or a low level of quality of material being produced). In either case, the stuff IS there, people just aren't responding to it in the same way they respond to superheroes.
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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby Brian Guay » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:11 pm

I'm thinking of a few things here. Not being of the verbal eloquence of either Andrew or Jay I'll muddle my way through them and try to be as clear as I can. :lol:

First people make comics because they get inspired by reading them themselves. I'm sure there are a few who found the medium via some other means and saw an opportunity for work without any real love of the medium but I'm going to guess that they are not the norm. Also people who create comics while inspired from others comics have a tendency to want to improve it and change it. Least in their own opinion. :lol:

Second thing comics are a business too. People spend their money based on what excites them and moves them.

So these two facts together seem to point to a natural flow of growth in the medium. People read comics, get inspired to create their own, those comics get good enough to sell to others who get inspired to create more. As the swell of people interested in comics grows so does the wealth of types of comics that come along. It's a slow process, hindered by many factors. (peoples desire to earn a decent living and therefore create comics that don't come from their souls being but one)

The point is that one can't really force the growth of comics. Things can be done to help it along but it'll ultimately be driven by the passions of the fans (creators are fans too). A company can't just hire people to create more non-tights comics and expect them to sell well. Without the passion driving behind them, I don't see them selling well.

I think it'll all come in time. :)

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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby Brian Guay » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:18 pm

Well one could make an argument that more advertising dollars could force the growth of comics by increasing the number of fans, therefore increasing the number of people who would be inspired to create their own. Of course it's easy for me to say that more money should be spent on advertising. Perhaps not as easy to do if I were in charge. :?

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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby Rent-A-Thug » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:18 pm

I don't buy that non-capes books don't move because the creators aren't putting their hearts into the books. I would argue that there are a lot more capes books out there that are produced by teams just there to make a buck than any other genre, based solely on the fact that superheroes are the dominant genre of the two biggest companies. I think that non-capes books don't move as well because people are so attached to the characters they grew up with that they aren't willing to take chances on new ones. There's something to be said for familiarity. People feel safe and comfortable with things they know and are familiar with.
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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby Brian Guay » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:09 pm

Rent-A-Thug wrote:I don't buy that non-capes books don't move because the creators aren't putting their hearts into the books. I would argue that there are a lot more capes books out there that are produced by teams just there to make a buck than any other genre, based solely on the fact that superheroes are the dominant genre of the two biggest companies. I think that non-capes books don't move as well because people are so attached to the characters they grew up with that they aren't willing to take chances on new ones. There's something to be said for familiarity. People feel safe and comfortable with things they know and are familiar with.


I'm not saying creator don't pour their souls into their books ...I'm saying that you can't just ask for more new books to be created and "phoned in" and expect them to sell as well as a Spider-man book that as just phoned in.

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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby Andrew Foley » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:58 pm

HHComics wrote:Well, the point could be argued that there is a very wide variety of stuff on the shelf (at better stores) than there ever have been in the history of the medium. More variety and more styles in titles. The problem is that while people ask for these different and unique books, they sell very poorly (not knowing if that's due to a finicky purchasing public or a low level of quality of material being produced). In either case, the stuff IS there, people just aren't responding to it in the same way they respond to superheroes.


The point could also be argued that better than ever in the history of the medium isn't good enough, or at least not good enough to prove sufficiently attractive to a mainstream audience.

And, given the recent cancellations of Blue Beetle, She-Hulk, Manhunter, etc., another arguable point is that people don't respond to superheroes, but to Spider-Man, Wolverine, Batman, X-Men, and Superman--the characters they're familiar with and have a nostalgic attachment to. Has there been a breakout superhero character since Spawn, even in comics?

And it's not "people" who aren't responding to non-superhero material, it's "people who are inclined to find, enter, and purchase material at a comics specialty shop." Non-comics folk either want diversity or just plain don't want superheroes--at least judging by the bookstores, magazine shops, and movie theatres I've been in.

Even the degree to which superheroes have managed to make it big in film is largely down to long-time comic fans bringing their passion to the public, rather than the public actively wanting it--and even then, you're going to be hard-pressed to find more than two superhero films going in the same multiplex at the same time. Which is reasonable, as you're not likely to find more than a few of any genre going at the same time, which is how it goes in most, if not all, narrative entertainment media, with one notable exception.

There are at least a half-dozen different vicious circles I can think of contributing to the overwhelming domination of superheroes in comics shops, even the good ones: lack of promotion for non-cape material by publishers and creators; the tastes of the fanboy who's the natural patron of superheroes; lack of vision from publishers and retailers who don't support non-cape material; Diamond's giving capes and tights material prominence over almost everything else in the catalogue; the overwhelming quantity of superhero stuff making finding anything else a needle in a haystack situation; some (bad) retailers' lack of awareness of what's going on in the medium outside of Marvel and DC; the sparsity of comic shops to begin with making it less likely that someone who isn't a superhero fan will make the effort to even locate a comic shop in the same city, assuming there even is one; creators producing mediocre if not outright crappy comics in all media...I could go on, but I''ve just depressed the living **** out of myself, so I'm not going to...

As an aside, rumour has it GEARS OF WAR #1 has sold 450k copies so far, with only 10% of that going through the direct market.
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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby rgrzela » Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:37 pm

The biggest blight - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If it did not matter, better work would come out - possible more work would come out of a greater variety.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

is king

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

SEX and $$$$$$$$$$$$ are the blight of the world.

Nothing can change until these two issues are resolved. It will never happen.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby HHComics » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:46 am

Andrew Foley wrote:The point could also be argued that better than ever in the history of the medium isn't good enough, or at least not good enough to prove sufficiently attractive to a mainstream audience.

And, given the recent cancellations of Blue Beetle, She-Hulk, Manhunter, etc., another arguable point is that people don't respond to superheroes, but to Spider-Man, Wolverine, Batman, X-Men, and Superman--the characters they're familiar with and have a nostalgic attachment to. Has there been a breakout superhero character since Spawn, even in comics?

This ties into why major chains (Chapters, Indigo, et all) don't carry Drawn & Quarterly or Fantagraphics prominately or at all in their stores. While the market is more diverse than ever, a combination of a disinterested audience and/or a lack of quality are not generating new readers. What is, however, are mainstream comics and manga, gateway books to get readers in speciality stores and asking about "What else is good?"

Breakout hero? The Watchmen, Iron Man and even Batman are breaking out again thanks to cross market promotion. Were some of them already established? Sure but now they are attracting people into shops or BACK into shops and that's a good thing.

And I don't buy the "the sparsity of comic shops to begin with" as there are plenty of stores across North America and only people who don't want to find one in this age of information, won't. Comics are also still in drug stores, supermarkets (admitedly not a prominately but I still see Archie's at every checkout) and mainstream bookstores, where people who read frequent.

In the end, all publishers can do is respond to what works and attempt to off shoot from that success with alternative publishing (Hellblazer's only been in print for about 20 years that has to count for something). And while blame for a lack of success can be spread all over the place, at least the big companies are trying to create (or re-vision) characters for stability where smaller companies are more interested in to trying create IP3's and folding like card houses when things don't catch fire.

If DC hadn't of tried Blue Beetle, they wouldn't have a fun new character for their universe, in print and cartoon, for Latino kids to connect with. Sure the title may not have survived more than 3 years but it was tried and made enough of an impact that the character should be around for quite a while.

I would say that, thankfully, mainstream comic readers are far more likely to take a chance on something new and different from what they normally read than those people who deem themselves "graphic novel readers" or are only interested in alternative or indie books. The latter group is unbelievable difficult to satisify becasue of their, generally false, preconcieved notions about anything produced by a corporation or containing a corporate character. It's the mainstream comic reader that's keeping the industry alive and giving hope to the success of alternative material (Fables, Y).
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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby Andrew Foley » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:45 pm

HHComics wrote:This ties into why major chains (Chapters, Indigo, et all) don't carry Drawn & Quarterly or Fantagraphics prominately or at all in their stores.


The reason they don't carry D&Q or Fantagraphics prominently in their stores is because those companies lack the resources of Marvel or DC to pay for prominent display, or the sales momentum of manga to take up a substantial section in their own right.

The only time I've ever seen Marvel prominently displayed at a major bookstore was on a table where they were 50% off. The only time I've seen DC comics displayed prominently was a set-up dedicated to Vertigo--not a lot of superheroes there. I have seen an endcap solely for First Second books. And in terms of variety of titles, the art/lit material (Maus, No Towers, Persepolis, etc.) and non-cape genre material (Sin City, Fables, Hellblazer) have almost as much presence as the capes--together they get maybe two shelving units with no distinction made between them beyond the bigger stuff (Absolutes, No Towers) going on the top shelf. Manga gets its own substantial section, but again, it's treated like a single genre the way "graphic novels" are, with all sorts of material jammed in to the same shelves.

But my original point was that bookshops are organized in different genres: horror, sci-fi, romance, fantasy, etc. And I've never, ever seen a bookshop with a section set aside for superhero novels. Because the superhero is an extremely minor subgenre when it comes to books, and only recently a genre in its own right when it comes to movies.

While the market is more diverse than ever, a combination of a disinterested audience and/or a lack of quality are not generating new readers. What is, however, are mainstream comics and manga, gateway books to get readers in speciality stores and asking about "What else is good?"


Whatever gets them in the door, I suppose. I have trouble believing that mainstream comics in bookstores drive more people to specialty shops than Archie in checkout lines at supermarkets, but you'd be better positioned to make that judgment than I am.

Breakout hero? The Watchmen, Iron Man and even Batman are breaking out again thanks to cross market promotion. Were some of them already established? Sure but now they are attracting people into shops or BACK into shops and that's a good thing.


Let me rephrase the question: have their been any NEW superheroes created since Spawn that have had any staying power?

"Some" of them were already established? One of the highest-regarded comics of all time and two that have been in publication continuously for forty years? Yeah, I think so. But the point remains, people don't seem to be clamouring for new superheroes.

And I don't buy the "the sparsity of comic shops to begin with" as there are plenty of stores across North America and only people who don't want to find one in this age of information, won't. Comics are also still in drug stores, supermarkets (admitedly not a prominately but I still see Archie's at every checkout) and mainstream bookstores, where people who read frequent.


When I was ten years old, there were at least three places I could easily walk to every week to try and find the latest issue of X-Men, Star Wars, and New Teen Titans. I knew those comics existed because I walked into a drug store, saw a copy of Star Wars, and got hooked. And I lived in Lacombe, a town that, at the time, had less than 5,000 people in it.

The last time I was in Lacombe, there were no comic shops I could find. There were no bookstores I could find. I might have seen an Archie in a grocery store, but that's not going to do much for a ten-year-old. I did see at least two stores devoted to selling videogames. So tell me, where's the next kid going to discover this medium? (Answer: online, probably, but that doesn't do much for comic retailers.)

People won't know they want something if they never encounter it. And finding a comic shop is one thing; getting to one is another. The sparsity of comic shops is an issue because comics aren't easy to stumble upon these days, and as a result it's less likely a kid's going to get involved with the medium. And then, even if they do, if they're unlucky enough to live in a remote area, or have asshole parents who won't drive them to a comic shop, they're kinda out of luck even if they are interested.

In the end, all publishers can do is respond to what works and attempt to off shoot from that success with alternative publishing (Hellblazer's only been in print for about 20 years that has to count for something). And while blame for a lack of success can be spread all over the place, at least the big companies are trying to create (or re-vision) characters for stability where smaller companies are more interested in to trying create IP3's and folding like card houses when things don't catch fire.


The IP model is one of the few that offers any chance of success for a small comics publisher in this day and age. Hell, it's one of the few that offers a chance of success for a new title from an established publisher in this day and age--Zuda's clearly built on that model, TimeWarner and Dark Horse both look to tie down multimedia rights...

The direct market is openly, and understandably, hostile to anything that comes from an unknown quantity. There are plenty of people whose goal is to publish comics who can see no feasible way to achieve that goal other than to try and exploit comics properties in other media. That speaks to the weakness of the market as much as the naivete/lack of business sense of the publishers.

I would say that, thankfully, mainstream comic readers are far more likely to take a chance on something new and different from what they normally read than those people who deem themselves "graphic novel readers" or are only interested in alternative or indie books. The latter group is unbelievable difficult to satisify becasue of their, generally false, preconcieved notions about anything produced by a corporation or containing a corporate character.


If their preconceived notions are that anything corporate is going to suck because it was created for a corporation, then that is an unfortunate and false preconception--at least part of the time.

If their preconceived notion is that corporate work is making a bunch of executives money off the back of unfairly exploited creators like Siegel, Shuster, Finger, Kirby, Ditko, Gerber, Wolfman, as well as all the creators who, by circumstance or choice, continue to create material on a work-for-hire basis, and they choose not to support those companies based on moral grounds, that's not inaccurate or unfair.

It's the mainstream comic reader that's keeping the industry alive and giving hope to the success of alternative material (Fables, Y).


For now.

Well, them and webcomics readers, anyway.

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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby HHComics » Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:08 pm

Andrew Foley wrote:I have trouble believing that mainstream comics in bookstores drive more people to specialty shops than Archie in checkout lines at supermarkets, but you'd be better positioned to make that judgment than I am.

I would liken it to buying a CD at Wal-Mart, then wanting to brach out and having to find a music store (independant or otherwise) to help move you forward with your entertainment.

Andrew Foley wrote:The last time I was in Lacombe, there were no comic shops I could find. There were no bookstores I could find.

Is this maybe an idicator of a large problem with literatur as a whole and something not limited to just comics? Another issue as to why many (most) places don't carry a lot of comics may be becasue there are too many. So while we've worked at trying to diversify the medium and create more opportunities for people to get into it, we may have made too much for a drug store or supermarket to deal with.

Andrew Foley wrote:The IP model is one of the few that offers any chance of success for a small comics publisher in this day and age.

What about work-for-hire/rights sharing (I pay you to make something and give you a percentage of the rights)? Most ventures I see or hear about are one or the other but seldom a hybred of the two. Maybe working together and sharing the property would produce better material that could be adapted into other platforms as both parties are invested and liable (and yes, I realize the near absurity of that statement).

Andrew Foley wrote:If their preconceived notions are that anything corporate is going to suck because it was created for a corporation, then that is an unfortunate and false preconception--at least part of the time.

There's at least one person on this board who thinks this way.

Andrew Foley wrote:If their preconceived notion is that ... the creators who, by circumstance or choice, continue to create material on a work-for-hire basis, and they choose not to support those companies based on moral grounds, that's not inaccurate or unfair.

So people who, by choice, do work-for-hire should not be supported? That seems unfair to me.
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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby Bob Prodor » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:24 pm

Breakout hero since Spawn? Hellboy
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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby Andrew Foley » Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:29 pm

Man Swamp wrote:Breakout hero since Spawn? Hellboy


Breakout SUPERhero.

Hellboy was actually the first thing I thought of after I wrote Spawn, and I almost changed the question to reflect it, but...

Hellboy doesn't wear a costume, he doesn't go out to fight general crime, and he doesn't have a secret identity. He does have a distinctive look and powers beyond normal humans. If that's all it takes to qualify as a superhero, Buffy's Angel or Indiana Jones arguably qualify as superheroes--but I don't think the majority of people would define them that way. I suspect the primary reason a lot of people would call Hellboy a superhero rather than an action hero a la Buffy is because he originates in comics, and everyone knows comics=superheroes.

So I see your point, and I'd even concede it if you want to take an inclusive view of what constitutes a superhero. That said, the point remains more or less the same: the last breakout superhero to originate in comics is more than fifteen years old, so where does the idea that comics fans want superhero material in general (as opposed to material featuring familiar superheroes) come from?

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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby Andrew Foley » Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:15 pm

Andrew Foley wrote:The last time I was in Lacombe, there were no comic shops I could find. There were no bookstores I could find.
Is this maybe an idicator of a large problem with literatur as a whole and something not limited to just comics? Another issue as to why many (most) places don't carry a lot of comics may be becasue there are too many. So while we've worked at trying to diversify the medium and create more opportunities for people to get into it, we may have made too much for a drug store or supermarket to deal with.


It's certainly an indicator of A problem with literature, but I tend to think there are two problems, one more general and the other more centred on the comics medium. Yes, the lack of a bookstores in general in a place like Lacombe is potentially indicative of a problem faced by traditional book/prose publishers. However, just by virtue of the education system, kids are going to be exposed to prose, even if they don't appreciate it.

The lack of exposure, specifically to younger readers, is where I see comics potentially getting into trouble, and it's why I continue to argue that there's a sparsity of comic shops. A place like Lacombe almost certainly doesn't generate sufficient demand to financially justify its own comic shop, but without it, there are few places for a reader like myself at the age of 8 to discover the medium and become enthralled with it. So we're back in a vicious circle, where there aren't enough readers of comics to justify a comics shop, and limited opportunities to hook new readers to comics because they can't be easily found (at least not unless a kid has cool parents who'll drive him someplace or they can get a license of their own.)

Andrew Foley wrote:The IP model is one of the few that offers any chance of success for a small comics publisher in this day and age.

What about work-for-hire/rights sharing (I pay you to make something and give you a percentage of the rights)? Most ventures I see or hear about are one or the other but seldom a hybred of the two. Maybe working together and sharing the property would produce better material that could be adapted into other platforms as both parties are invested and liable (and yes, I realize the near absurity of that statement).[/quote]

Actually, most small press comics publishers do offer around 50% of the profits from multimedia, but rights is a tricky issue and control is a huge one. In one situation I was in, it was agreed that all rights would revert to me if the publisher failed to put the book out by a certain time; that I would have editorial control of the book; that I would share in multimedia profits; and a bunch of other stuff. I got the contract, which was a WFH deal. I showed it to my lawyer, who opined that he could alter it to reflect what was agreed upon, but that as long as the term work-for-hire (which implies very specific things in terms of authorship and rights) was in the contract, "It'd be like trying to turn a car into a boat; it'll take a lot of effort and it still might not float."

He suggested another model that would easily reflect the agreement--and turn a 19 page WFH contract into a three page rights agreement. The publisher balked at not having WFH in the contract, and I walked away.

The other big issue is control of a multimedia property. The idea that both parties are invested in a property sounds good, but it can fall apart when one party is looking out for the interests of their company, while the other party is more concerned about their creation or themselves. I was in a very unpleasant situation where a publisher wanted to present something in a way I and my collaborator disagreed with, without making us or the publisher any money for giving certain rights to a third party, because the publisher believed this would benefit the company (my collaborator and I disagreed and were ultimately proven right on that point, but even if it had been successful in that form, my manager tells me that allowing those rights to go {and for nothing}, we'd be actively damaging the property's prospects for more lucrative, and certainly more appropriate, exploitation in other media.)

So, yeah. It's a thorny situation all around.

Andrew Foley wrote:If their preconceived notion is that ... the creators who, by circumstance or choice, continue to create material on a work-for-hire basis, and they choose not to support those companies based on moral grounds, that's not inaccurate or unfair.

So people who, by choice, do work-for-hire should not be supported? That seems unfair to me.[/quote]

OK, I'm going to take this to a ridiculous extreme to make the point: would you consider not buying something that was manufactured by slaves to be unfair?

As I said, that's overly extreme, but buying a comic from Marvel or DC is doing much more to support those companies than it is the creators of the work that are the foundation of the companies' success. When one of the guys who created Superman have to work as a messenger for the company that's reaping hundreds of millions of dollars off the character, something's not right. If I understand the contract correctly, Zuda creators will get 1% of the money generated from multimedia exploitation of their creations; TimeWarner gets 99% of what's generated by such exploitation for all time, in all media that are ever created in the entire universe, in exchange for an initial outlay of less than $15,000. In terms of up-front payment, that's actually a pretty good deal for a new creator. But the back-end cost is heavy, because even if the property goes nowhere in the TimeWarner hierarchy, its creators won't ever have the ability to do ANYTHING with it that DC doesn't approve of, and DC doesn't have to approve of anything.

Steven Grant once said something to the effect of, he never met anyone who gave multimedia rights to their property to a comics publisher when they were 20 who didn't regret it when they were 40.

At the end of the day, if you disagree with the basic premise behind work-for-hire, which is that the creators of a work are not that work's authors, then the best thing you can do for those creators is not support the companies that are unfairly exploiting them. They may take a hit, but in the case of Marvel and DC, the hit the company takes will be much larger, because Marvel and DC have an interest in the properties beyond just fulfilling the requirements of their contract.

Not that that'll ever happen in sufficient mass for it to affect long-established exploitative successful business practices. But there's certainly a moral argument to be made by those who choose not to support those practices.
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Re: Comics Biggest Blight

Postby HHComics » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:06 pm

Guess I should actually start the poll.
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